Dec 9, 2020
Today I speak with Joulé Bazemore and BarbColeman, Co-Coordinators of The Bridge Program at Wooster School, aprogram designed to address the needs of students with LanguageBased Learning Disabilities. We discuss what these are, howthey impact students, and how the Bridge Programhas found a successful way to remediate these challenges forstudents within their typical classroom. You can learn moreabout Wooster School and The Bridge Programhere:
https://www.woosterschool.org/
https://www.woosterschool.org/page.cfm?p=714
TRANSCRIPT(not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, learning, program, teachers, language, bridge,talking, worcester, work, disabilities, reading, parents,classroom, special education, area, dyslexia, meeting, wooster,adhd, educators
SPEAKERS
Joulé Bazeman, Barb Coleman, Dana Jonson
Dana Jonson 00:02
Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I'm yourhost, Dana Jonson and I'm here to give you the information you needto know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special educationattorney in private practice, a former special education teacherand administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS and Imyself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I have approached the world ofdisability and special education from many angles. And I'll providestraightforward information about your rights and your schoolsobligations, information from other professionals on many topics,as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district.My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there'sanything you want to hear, comment on, join our Facebook group,it's aptly named need to know with Dana Jonson, or you can email meat Dana at special ed dot life. Okay, let's get started. Todaywe're going to talk with Julie bass Moore and Barb Coleman, who arethe coordinators of the bridge program at Worcester Academy inDanbury, Connecticut, that is a private school. It's not a publicschool. And it's not a Special Education School. It's your typicalcollege prep private school. But why I wanted to have you guys onJulie and Barb is because you have an interesting program, whichaddresses language based learning disabilities through the bridgeprogram at Worcester. So the reason I have the two of you on was todiscuss language based learning disabilities, because the programthat you coordinate at Worcester is directed specifically forstudents with language based learning disabilities. So before weget into what those are and how we address them in the classroom,could you guys just do a brief introduction of yourselves and howyou got here and why you are the people that I need to talk toabout language based learning disabilities,
Joulé Bazeman 02:00
zillo speaking, what landed me here was, sir, I for the last, Iwant to say 1514 years, I'm having working with students withlearning disabilities across the spectrum. So formerly, I was alearning specialist as a private school in Connecticut, forstudents on the spectrum. But my work has always been with studentswho learn differently. So I came to Worcester headed to Ohio tostart a program there, by love was there so much that I decidedthat definitely I want to stay in Connecticut and in redesign, sothe bridge program that it had already existed for a year before Ibefore Barb and I came on board, but it looked very differentlythan what it looks like now, I really want the opportunity toredesign that program to make it more inclusive for our students sothat they can participate across every area of the of the Woosterprogram. And Barb, how did you get here, my journey was a littlebit, I would say, more convoluted. I taught for many, many years inpublic school in Westchester County. And during that time, I alwayshad a co teacher in my classroom. And I always really was so amazedby the relationship and the possibilities that could you know,happen for students who learn differently. I did become from there,a staff developer and the head of gifted and talented program,which is kind of the other end of the spectrum of students wholearn differently as well. And all along, my interest just grewabout like neuro diversity and neurology and learning. So I startedjust taking course after course, I amassed almost 60 credits in inScience and Learning and the brain and I and then I hadchildren.
Barb Coleman 03:44
A little detour planted up at Worcester, as the beginning ofwhat is now their tutoring program, where I was working withstudents who just needed something a little bit different duringtheir school day, mostly in the STEM areas. And we were justlooking at how we could accommodate learners in that way. And thenwhen the bridge program opportunity presented itself, and delay wason board for the literacy and they asked me if I be interested inthe stem end, and really kind of refurbishing and making thisprogram is something that we thought it could be that we alwayshoped we could be involved in something like this. We just jumpedat it. And we've just been working at it consistently ever sincetogether. That's great. And that's a wonderful segue into what arethese language face learning disabilities that we're talking about?Because I think when people hear language based learningdisabilities, the first thought is language, can they notunderstand me? Is that an English issue an English language learnerissue, which it is not at all. But can you guys talk a little bitabout what language based learning disabilities are? I know, theyencompass reading disabilities and writing and they touch on math.There's so many areas that we address through language basedcomponents. So what do you guys see as the primary issues or ordisabilities that come through that impact that language basedcomponent.
Joulé Bazeman 05:04
By the time the students come to us, many of our students havealready been in an intensive program to address their languagelearning challenges. So we're like to transition to that piece,they're not fully ready to jump right into a particular program. Sowe're like right in the middle for them to take that next step. Butwhat we see with our students, students, who we primarily work withare students who have been diagnosed with dyslexia, seeing a lotmore students with a diagnosis of auditory auditory processingissues, we have students who have graffia, as well as one of theirmain diagnosis. Many of our students come with code morbidity. Sowe're looking at executive functioning, we also have students whomay have some level of anxiety, given their experiences with theirlanguage learning challenges,
Barb Coleman 05:54
I think it's important to explain what pole morbidity is, andmany of these disabilities that we're talking about have otherdisabilities that come along with them, though, for example, ADHD,and anxiety go hand in hand, it's almost, it's one of the mostdifficult things to tease out whether that anxiety is from the ADHDor standalone. And when you're talking about reading disorders, andother forms of learning disabilities. In my experience, if they arenot properly addressed, they do turn into emotional components.Yeah, often, by the time you get to middle school, high school,particularly with girls, you end up with a lot of emotionalcomponents. And, and those other pieces that, again, anxiety,depression, eating disorders, all of those components that can goalong with not being properly programmed for us, I find that whenwe have children, particularly who are very bright and are able tosort of mask a lot of the learning component, but the emotionalpiece builds up such that we get to middle school, high school, andwe think we have an emotional disorder. And what we're realizing iswe had one of the language faith issues going on address.
Joulé Bazeman 07:03
Exactly.
Barb Coleman 07:04
And we do see that and, you know, as much emphasis as we do wantto put on, you know, identification of the deficit, or thedisability and, and proper accommodation, we spend a tremendousamount of time on the whole student. So we're really thinking aboutthis social being this emotional creature, this student in ourenvironment, knowing that if they feel understood, if they feelsafe, if they feel strength based, if they feel supported andpartnered with, then many of those things that we're really kind ofshutting down opportunities for them are going to be alleviated, orat least not going to be the beacon that was taking most of thelight of the room for them. So we really do emphasizerelationships. And we do emphasize this partnership, as we areworking through the lblv with these kids.
Joulé Bazeman 07:54
Yeah, and I want to add, I just had a not too long theconversation with the student, we were talking about LD SD, theinvisible disability, because our students, they're going to walkyou just don't walk in a row, say, hey, there's a dyslexic overthere, right. And our students have been masters of coping, theyhave learned to find ways to not showcase their challenge. Sothat's where you get a lot of the anxiety and a frustration ontheir part because they there is something that they're strugglingwith. But they've coped in a way that it's challenging for theteacher or someone who's working with them to pick up on it. And sothe teacher or the the instructor, whoever's working with them, maysee their challenges being there. They're just lazy, you just needto try harder, or you're just not paying attention. If you put moreeffort into this work, you'll you'll be good and students arealready working at their level best there are students who tell mebefore they've worked with us, Miss Bay's more Miss Coleman, beforeI would get a reading assignment, it would take me two and a halfhours to get through that reading. Now, I've learned some otherways to address that. But that's a lot of work on their end. So wewant to be mindful that these challenges are not so very evidentwithin a student and it is going to take a few teachers to reallypush me on labeling behaviors as other being lazy, or I want to sayavoidance, and really asking this question. So what could be a playhere with these students?
Barb Coleman 09:23
as a as a student who I grew up with undiagnosed dyslexia andADHD, so I was a master at compensating for myself and notrealizing that that wasn't something you were supposed to do. Ijust thought that's how it was for me. And I didn't understand whythe other kids didn't have to work as hard as I did. Or even when Iworked really, really hard and I didn't get something. I didn't getit. So I got a lot of that you're lazy, you are not putting in theeffort. And for me, one of the things I tried to do was I wasworking but I was trying to make it look like I wasn't workingbecause if I was gonna fail, I didn't want people to think I putthe energy in. So it takes a lot of energy to be studying andpretending you're not studying. And then. And then when you don'tdo well trying to explain that you actually did study it. It's avery, it's a lot going on for a teenage kid. And so I totally seeit. And it's my seat with my daughter who has dyslexia, ADHD, butshe has supports and she was identified early on. And sometimes Iget irritated. I'm like, ah, she just needs to toughen up. We're onhow to accommodate her. So now, it's a completely different skillsets. But as you said, the level of stress. And for me anyway,there was fear, constant fear that someone would figure it out, youknow, somebody would figure out that I was just a complete fraud.You know, and I think one of the things that was interesting wasonce it was determined that you know, and I was 19, I was incollege when I when I was diagnosed, so her actually no longer incollege. It took a quick detour. But one of the things that I foundinteresting was, then there was this concept of, well, that'sdyslexia that shouldn't impact your memory. Or, you know, what doesthat have to do with history? Well, in order for me to learn thehistory, I got to do a lot of reading. So talk a little bit abouthow things like language based disabilities do impact, as you said,the whole child through the whole curriculum, everywhere that theyare, I know, for my daughter, one of the issues she had was aninability to navigate the playground. So when kids were runningaround shouting rules to games, they were making up as they wereplaying, which is very typical, and very chaotic, she could notfollow. And that was her brain not being able to to navigate aroundan unexpected situation, and then the ADHD and the attention. Sohow do these language based disabilities play on other areasoutside of sages reading? Well, I think I can speak to thatfirsthand as the part of the partnership here that works withstudents in the math and science areas, in particular, besidesacademics, and there's also others, I think, one of the firstthings we see with all students is that teenagers already feel likeeveryone's looking at them. And then to have to actually take thatrisk, and ask for something maybe different a different pathway,maybe to ask for an accommodation that's been identified, or maybethat hasn't been in a need. So that already is a challenge. Andthat impacts students across every, whether it's sports, whetherit's academics, whether it's anything that's going to impact them.So there's there's the competence tied to that in their math andscience classes, there are so many steps that are a part of aprocess, think of like a typical chemistry class. And if you have astudent who might struggle with language, or has a deficit in thatarea, to sequential ordering of things, especially if it's onlygiven verbally, going to be really, really challenging, and then tohave to stop and, and maybe be the only one who asked to have thedirections repeated or maybe to not be able to do anything and juststay and wait and maybe pick up on a visual cue from a teammate orappear. That can be really challenging problem solving and mathbecause a lot of language that can be almost foreign to studentswho if they can't verbalize and visualize, it won't even know whata reasonable answer might be. So we're constantly looking andtrying to predict and preview what might come up for you in theseoccurrences, where might language actually be a barrier or anobstacle for you to be able to do something that we know thatyou're going to be able to do, we just might need to get you therein a different path.
Joulé Bazeman 13:39
Because there's such a move for students to show their thinking.So one of the things I was surprised that we are big in in havingstudents share out we do thinking visible type of routines. And soeven in the math and science, we're asking students to, to writedown to even talk about their processes. So our students, many ofour students get stuck with that because they're like, okay, sowhere do I start? And how do I start to explain to someone thesteps I took for, let's say, this math problem. So strategies,we've had one senior, we were just talking to him the other day,and he brought up a memory that he would come in our office and liedown on the ground on the floor, and just talk out as we scribe forhim that helped to relax him. He didn't feel the pressure of havingto put word to page because once he stares at a page, then he losesthe thinking. And so that that was one of the out of box strategieswe did for the students, you know, giving you more specifics interms of how this plays out, particularly in language, theexpression of language, knowing when to start knowing how to, youknow, go deeper. So what is the next step? What is was the nextthing that I need to say here? So we teach them a lot aboutquestioning, using questioning techniques so that they can have ascaffold that when they're working on their own, they havesomething that they can fill in as they go along.
Barb Coleman 14:57
Yeah, and I see that with my own Daughter in that, thatinability to organize those thoughts. And so when you have so manythoughts, and you have to pick one to start with, but they all seemequally important, exactly, you can't narrow them down and get themout. And it's really hard to explain how that that process works.And what I've heard people say is, but that's not the real world,he's not going to get to sit down on the floor, someone's office atwork and dictate his report. And my answer to that is, that's true.But this isn't the real world. This is this is what we are learninghow to manage the real world. So when you implement strategies likethat, what is the ultimate goal is your ultimate goal that this isthe only way the student can present his work? Or what are youdoing by allowing that student to relay the information in the bestway they can, I think it's important to go back to the examplesyour les was just mentioning about the student who was fine on ouroffice floor. Now, even within his own time, it was Sir, he wasn'tlying on the floor and other classrooms to do his work. So he wasmeeting, you know, the expectation of the quote unquote, real worldin terms of that space, it just happened to work where we werebecause of the, you know, the intimacy of our group. But I thinkthe idea is that, you know, find strategies that work, and thenfind ways to apply them in the broader scope of things. And then asyou kind of grow in your skill set and develop more confidence, andalso advocacy, because this particular student is at a universityin Connecticut, and he is accessing support at that level and doingvery, very well, you just continue to kind of evolve and grow withwhatever is working for you use strengths that you have used yourrelationship skills, use the tools that you've put in your toolbelt from a program that's designed to work with you as anindividual, and then see how you know, you can kind of manifestthat in the larger area. I know that's very broad, but there's nota one size fits all for Ldlt. So it's going to look different foreverybody
Joulé Bazeman 17:07
want to add to because the student going back to the example, hewas able to say, and this is how I can do the same thing that liedon the floor somewhere. But he knows that being able to talk outhis thinking works best for him. So what he's done, even atcollege, is to record himself, that's something that he's done. Andhe also has a person that he can go to, and they could talk out anddo some back and forth. So our main goal in our program is one isto let students know that they do have choice, I think that that'sthe very first thing that we teach them other than this is what allthis means this is what LD means. And then this is how it manifestsfor you. But you also have choice. And these students are verycreative, and they're going to choose to be environments in theiradult life, that's going to work best for them, they're not goingto be the ones that go into a situation and say, Okay, now I haveto redesign this to fit me, they're going to be thinking about whatis going to make them happy, what is going to be in their bestinterest to get their smarts out no matter where they are. And Ithink that that's the beauty of the of the program.
Barb Coleman 18:16
An interesting point about the self advocacy piece, I wasrecently speaking with a man who is legally blind, and he was froma very young age, but he could still see. So he didn't realize hewas legally blind. He assumed that how everyone else was seeing aswell, and wasn't clear on why he was having a harder time thanother people. And I want to say he was like nine or 10. Before thiswas recognized. And and so I think it's important for people torecognize that you can go and he was legally blind, and nobody knewit until he was about 10. So it really is possible for students andchildren to naturally accommodate their deficit, and not recognizethat they have the deficit. So then you get to a place where How doyou self advocate, if you don't know what your deficit is? And evenif you figure out your deficit, if you don't know what it is youneed? How are you going to self advocate? And what I love about thestudents, you're talking about who's lying on the floor talking outloud? Who's to say that that isn't how he could do his own work? Asyou said it with technology today to for him what works is to liedown and relax and dictate. I know for me when I'm driving, if Ihave a long drive, you know before COVID we I drive all over thestate. I turn on my dictation software and I talk and I just getout all the words and a lot of them don't make sense. But I getthem out and then I can go back and refine it. And I think it's amatter of figuring out as you said, What work and you have to startsomewhere and sometimes that's laying on the floor in yourteacher's office.
Joulé Bazeman 19:53
And one of the things that we we do in our program is that manyof our students, they have our They already come with tools thatwork for them. And we give them an opportunity to share with theirpeers, because we feel that they are the best teachers like that.The kids listen to us, because we're adults, and we hold the title,but they really listen to each other. And so we've had studentsshare assistive technology, how to use Google more effectively, orthe Google suite more effectively, to address a need. We hadstudents bring in smart pens and show that to other students andhow to annotate using other software's these are the kids teachingeach other think that we do we do a good job, pat ourselves on theback, provide that and provide a environment where these kids cando that they become a teachers and they actually share with kidswho are not in our program. That's another great thing, though,with what's going on in the in a bridge program is that they takelike, our expectation is that what you learn here, you have asocial responsibility. And so what what you learn here will workfor you, it may be beneficial for other students, and so they'reable to take that back into their classrooms and say, Hey, I knowwe're working on like a lit circle here, this is what I've learned,I think it works best for me, I think will be beneficial for thewhole group. And that to get feedback from your peers isamazing.
Dana Jonson 21:17
And that goes back to the choice, right? Because if there's onlyone way to do things, and there is no choice in how you do them,then there's nothing to teach, right? There's nothing to share.Yeah, right. And you're saying, Oh, you have to do it that way.Because you're different, you're different. And, you know, I wouldsay that with students with disabilities, that there are things wecan do, that the entire class would benefit from. And there are, Ihad a student who took a medication that made them thirsty, so theyneeded water, but the classroom rule was no water bottles, and onlystudents who had this is not the public school. So I should clarifythat it was not a public school. It was a parochial school. But theconcept was, if you have a medical note, you can have a waterbottle on your desk. Well, what third grader wants to do that?Right, what fourth grader wants to be the only kid who has a waterbottle and every other kid knows, it's just because there's amedical note, why can't we have a water rule that accommodates thatchild that is manageable within the classroom, that doesn't meanevery kid can jump up and run and get water whenever they want. Butas you said, being creative, coming up with choices and looking atwhat might work for the entire room, instead of saying, I know thatthis works, so I'm sticking with it just like that.
Barb Coleman 22:33
But I think that it becomes additionally powerful in ourrelationships with our neurotypical teachers. So our students inour program, our Western students, first they participate ineverything across the board. And then they have bridge as an addedpart to their schedule. So we work really closely with theteachers. But one of the things that we have found has been reallysuccessful for us as a community is how open and willing everybodyon our campus has been to utilizing strategies and just having anunderstanding that people learn differently. And whether it's an lbLD, or whether it's just somebody without an lb LD that has apacing issue, or whatever it is, these best practices, thesestrategies are good for all learners. So by by our students comingin and informing us what really good pedagogy could look like, wecan then help inform others and it just becomes inclusive andaccessible to all the learners in the space.
Joulé Bazeman 23:29
Yeah, and it's interesting little stigma tied to that, like weand that's the systemic,
Dana Jonson 23:33
what's the right word, it's a, it's a social issue. That's theenvironment. That's everyone around them saying, and that comes inmany ways from the top down. So if you're saying, the students whodon't learn this way, they have to go over there, that sending themessage. And that's where I think we get those comments like, butyou can't do that in the real world. No, you can't. But youprobably also don't have a restriction around your water bottle inthe real world. You know, there are a lot of things going on inschool that have nothing to do with the real world. The goal is toteach students and I think it's important to recognize that forsome students, just because they can't naturally obtain the skilldoesn't mean they can't attain the skill. You know, My son was awas a premium. He had some issues. So he had to have PT for hisfirst two years of life so that he could learn to crawl and walk.And now he walks just fine by himself, and he got all that but heneeded that additional teaching Pacific to him so that he could getto that place where everybody else was. I think we forget aboutthat, too. When we're so busy thing What about the real world,which I really want to know what this real world is we're allpreparing Yeah, cuz
Joulé Bazeman 24:49
I don't. I don't get that because I know that. I mean, myexperience with the world real world, particularly as accounts tothe students that we're working With like the fear of shakingthings up, right, they're out there. They're saying, you know,because because many students were LBL de Vere, like your nextentrepreneurs, right, and they're designing spaces where there'sthat those barriers don't exist. problem solvers, they're problemsolvers, they want to shake things up, they're going to be verythoughtful about including other voices, because they, they havethat like, really deep sense of empathy all of our students do. AndI feel that maybe when people were talking about the the realworld, they're stuck in, like, the 70s, or 80s, or whatever thatlooks like. But going forward, we're seeing a lot of changes. Whereare you seeing colleges that are saying that you know what, we haveto do something differently. Because it's not only in the bestinterest of the student that's coming to their campus, it's in thebest interest of the whole community. Right, yeah. To be forthinking to think outside the box to reimagine what a learningexperience can be. And so we are excited to see, when we hear ourstudents who have graduated, come back to us and tell us what theyhave been up to like, we have one student who is on the board oftrustees at his college. And he's asking these questions. So howcan we be more forward thinking in terms of how we address theneeds of students who learn differently? So that's very powerful tohear,
Barb Coleman 26:19
taking those lessons learned to the real world, to be able toadd someone in the real world and say, It's okay, if this isn'tyour process for presenting or learning, like, yes, the end productneeds to be a certain thing. But how you get there, it's only ifyou get there your own way. Even the idea that it's the you know,we're using the term disability to talk about a difference. So youknow, it's scientific, it's clinical, however, you know, so But,but when we're talking with our students, we're not really talkingabout disabilities, we're talking about what strengths are theybringing? And what differences do they have in terms of how they'regoing to access opportunities, or information or skills orconcepts? And how can we creatively, maybe find a pathway that'snot the same as everyone else? Because we know that average isreally just a social construct. It doesn't exist, what is average?So wait, we're looking at people's individuals, and we're lookingat people as as different and unique than then let's honor thatjaggedness and meet them where they are, and help them go wherethey want to go. Right. And I love that. Yeah, the jagged profilewhen you talk about, and I love the visual that comes with it, itfor anyone listening, who I've mentioned this many times. So ifyou're not familiar with that, the jagged, the jagged profiles,something that came out of the end of average, from Todd roseswork, but I think it's a lot of people's work. The idea that youmay have two students with the exact same IQ, but they may not havea single strength or weakness in common. And so that being the ideathat we have these Jagat profiles, but we're treating our childrenas if they are all we're basing them against this one averagestudent, and I don't know who they are. And I don't know where theyare. But that's the norm against which we are measuring everyone,if not a fair or accurate representation of students, I look atmyself, I have myself evaluated again, before I went to law school,I went when I was in my 30s. And, you know, I have dyslexia andADHD. And I do have a master's in special education. So I'mfamiliar with a lot of my strengths and weaknesses. And I had areading rate of 8% when I entered law school, and I still finished,and I'm still a lawyer. And that was because I spent a lot of timeworking on strategies that work for me, and figuring out what Ineeded. And the law school didn't have to change, but I had to beaware of what I needed. And I went to a school where that wasfeasible. And I think, first teacher when I was in college, who Iwent to and said I have these issues. And their response was that'syour problem, not mine. That was in 1990. So a long time ago. Butit's different now. And one of the things that I always say is, theonly place that special education exists is in the public school.Because the public school in order to educate on mass, they have toeducate in one way. And that one way has gotten wider. Since when Iwas little that one way now encompasses many more students. But ifyou're not in those in that lane, then you're over here and youneed something special, and it has to be done differently. Whereaswhen you remove yourself from the public school world, yes, we haveschools specified for disability, but in other programs, like sayyours, it's just education. You're just learning it in a differentway. And you've signed up for this bridge program because while youare a typical student at Worcester, you require these additionalsupport. Is that an accurate way to say it, do
Dana Jonson 29:49
you think?
Joulé Bazeman 29:50
I think at some level, I was thinking about, you know, we try wereally focus on on students is that you're beyond your label. Youare, we always say person first. And the label itself helps toidentify practices that can be used in your in your setting. Butyou're beyond that. So when we talk about s practice, we're workingwith dyslexia, like there's research methodology, it's out there,like we know, by doing x, we're going to, we're going to guaranteey, based on that research that's out there. Now, and the studentlayer to that is that each student is going to have their own typeof expression. So we have to figure out, okay, from this list ofthings, we know work for this particular diagnosis, what's going tobe in the best interest of this particular child, so we have toindividualize, we have to personalize, we get the students evolve,they give us feedback, they reflect, they'll, they're very honestwith us, like, that didn't work for me, let's try something else.So we really try to move them beyond the label and think aboutagain, like what Barb said, What are their strengths? And how canwe leverage their strengths, to address the other things that maybe going on? Oh,
Barb Coleman 31:01
you're gonna add to that, even when we think we have a plan,they'll change it because, you know, we, you know, we're, we'reknowingly, we are small, which is a gift to be able to do what wedo, because you did mention, you know, public schools, and they dohave huge medical students to handle and, and to personalize anindividualized at the level that we do, I'm not sure how that wouldwould work from what they are, their constraints are right. So wedo have a very ideal situation, in that there's a very low pupil toteacher ratio. And we also have people who are really committed anddedicated to this particular understanding for these cohorts. Buteven once we have a plan in place, a lot of times the students willadvocate for what they think needs to happen. So we're in aconstant feedback loop. We're very, very flexible, we leave ouregos at the door, because what we think we might know, might not bewhat they need at the moment. So we really have to constantly justrely on the the trust and the relationships that we're buildingwith the students and the cohorts, to know when to say yes, we'regonna push through this because we know kind of like a mom or adad, this is what you need. And this is going to be good for you.Or are we more of a peer and a partner that day, and we're going totake your feedback, and maybe acquiesce or maybe shift or changeyours, because you might know a little bit more about what you needthat at that day. So it's just constantly evolving. And I think thekey word there is trust. I have a meeting with my daughter, whereshe actually said when they were talking about her extra time, sheraised her hand, seventh grade, I was really impressed. And shesaid, Can I get some of that extra time in advance? And we allstopped and looked at her and said, What? And she's like, well, ifI have to take English, is there any reason I can't read the booksfirst over the summer, so it's not the first time I'm reading them.And I mean, I, as a parent, and a former educator was soembarrassed, it never occurred to me. Everyone at the table, we'reall sort of like, Yeah, that makes sense. None of us could come upwith a reason why not. But I think we were all surprised to havethe seventh grader turn around and be like, Hey, guys, I have athought. And what I've learned as a parent, is that my kids have alot of really valuable input. And I think that for some reason, andthen maybe it's the way we were raised, but I don't think wenaturally go to the students for their input, we say we do we wantto I never met an educator who didn't think that was important. ButI'm not sure we do. And whether that's just not. There's noavailability, maybe it's not feasible, depending on your program.But I found that I always assumed that given given a choicechildren would not go to school and not want to be there. Thatthat's just what I assume. Probably because my education growing upwas so challenging. For me. That was just my assumption. But I'mlearning that's not true. Yeah, exactly.
Joulé Bazeman 33:57
I mean, I want to go back what you said earlier, is that I thinkmost of the challenge for adults asking students is that the systemwas are already telling us that the students broken, right? As anadult, you feel like you take that on and feel that you have to fixsomething and you're the only one it becomes that like that saviorcomplex. Yeah. And, and I think that I know for both Barb and I,we've talked about this, too, is that that's not where we're comingfrom. We always tell the kids, you're not broken. There is nothingbroken about you. What we're going to work on is for you to reallyunderstand how best you learn and implement those things. Butthere's nothing broken about you. We're not saviors. We're verydeliberate in terms of the link the language that we use with ourstudents, we say we are partners in learning with you. Because asyou learn, we also learn, right? Every student that we work with,we take something away and we're like, yes, that that was a greatone. lesson for me as an educator, definitely great lesson for thestudent. And then how can we pay that forward to another experiencethat we'll have. But we don't use things even we don't even use thelanguage support. Right? We don't tell the student we're supportingthem. Because some students they've had experiences with support,then has not been supportive. But you'll never hear say that wewe've already spoken to our faculty about not using the languagemainstreaming the language. Again, as partnership, we askquestions, we're always question we always deliver with a questionlike, how's this working for you now? What else do you need? Whatcan you do when you don't know what to do? Like that? That's one ofour costs and questions for our students. And that helps us to havethat deeper dialogue. And I think that as educators, if educatorscan get at the mindset that we have to fix these students, and thatthey're broken, you can make some better choices as aneducator.
Barb Coleman 35:57
And I like that point about, you know, mainstreaming, becausebecause mainstreaming, indicates that you were segregating them inthe first level, right? So if you have to take a step to includethem, then that means that they're separate in the first place,versus some students might go to this classroom to do one thing inthis classroom to do something else. And these students are simplygoing here to do what they need to do. And it's not a separation,it's, it's part of the whole educational environment, it's part oflearning. And think that when we have classrooms that are so huge,and it is so difficult, and it is such a shame, that in order to beable to go to those places, whether it's support, or whatever it'scalled, a lot of times students are missing out on other aspects ofeducation, they're missing out on social opportunities, whetherit's lunch, and you know, yeah, well, you have lunch, lunch, duringlunchtime, sure. But that is eliminating another area of socialinteraction, or art, or a foreign language, or all of these thingsthat are so important, and all pieces that children with language,face disabilities are often good at, you know, and we'reeliminating the components that they're good at, so that we canhelp them with the parts they're not good at. So now they're justspending all day only doing stuff that's difficult for them thatthey can't do that fun, when not fun and told that that's what theyhave to do, they're being punished for while everybody else goes toart, you're going to go work on this thing that you don't like andisn't easy, and might not be with somebody who you work well withexactly. We do. Part of part of, I think another part of bridgethat works well is our ability to work within the higher campusclasses and different events. And like we're, we're always presentas the the staff, the bridge staff, and also our students, ofcourse, our fully Western students first, but we also make anappearance in classrooms, all throughout the week, every level ofclass, every type of class. And when we are in there, students haveequal access to any person in that room as a partner in theirlearning. So sometimes somebody from bridge might be leading theentire class instruction, sometimes they might be splitting a classand taking a group breakout group for smaller skill sets. Sometimesthey're just teaming up with that particular lead teacher that dayto, you know, kind of help with an assessment, whether that'sauthentic, or you know, whether it's a summative, or formative, butwe are so fluid that I have students, and so does July all thetime, who are not part of our bridge program, who are sending uspapers to ask for feedback, who are asking if they can meet with usduring office hours. But so we are truly community oriented. Andthat comes with that idea that we don't pull out and separatestudents in bridge in unless it's because we have a specific skillsarea that we're working on with them in a bridge specific class,but it doesn't come at the expense of art or music or participationin sports or lunch, or the culture. It's part of the culture, Iguess. I mean, I hear what you're saying. And it's very difficultto do in a large building with a large body of students. And, youknow, we could talk all day about how we should revamp the entirepublic schools. We have enough time for that today.
Dana Jonson 39:18
Though, I really appreciate you guys breaking this down. BecauseI think it's so critical to understand that these language basedlearning disabilities that so many students have that are justspecific learning disability is the largest used
Joulé Bazeman 39:33
xactly
Dana Jonson 39:34
disability category for any child with IEPs. Right That's,that's the the largest category use. So the vast majority of ourchildren in special education have language based or some form ofspecific learning disability and language based learningdisabilities. And so to evolve the culture of our schools wouldsimply make sense. So hopefully, hopefully we'll get on that soon.But in the meantime, for anybody listening to us, who says, Well,clearly, I only need to talk to Barbara Julia because they knowexactly what I'm talking about. They know exactly what about mystudents. And I need to look into the Wister program. How wouldthey find you guys? Where do they go?
Joulé Bazeman 40:18
Well, you can, we do have on our Wooster website, a section justfor bridge. And I'll give some more information about the programour philosophy, remembering that we are in align with the Woosterwhole philosophy as community first. So you'll find informationthere. And there's also information in terms of what type ofdocumentation will need if you want to start the process forapplication. So everything's there on their website.
Barb Coleman 40:41
Yeah. And that's something I wanted to ask to for parents whoare saying, you know, this sounds like my kid, what kind of thingsdo you do tell parents to look out for? Like, I think my kid mighthave a language based learning disability, where the types ofthings that you would listen for today? Yeah, that might be youmight want to look into the bridge program. You mean, if theyhaven't been documented, right? If they haven't been documented,like the parents, or you're talking to someone, and the parentsays, You know what this sounds like a program my child wouldbenefit from, like, What are the signs that parents can look forthat maybe it is a language based learning disability that they'redealing with? Are there any specific red flags that you see? Yeah,I mean, it depends also on the age level, but around the time whenwe're looking at students who might be interested at the middle toupper school level, you know, anytime students are reallystruggling with reading fluency, if they have difficulty withcomprehension, or popularity, you like, Can you think of
Joulé Bazeman 41:35
Yes, so, like word retrieval, like what we're doing, that can bea challenge. My students have word retrieval, we have studentsanother red flag would be if they're really struggling withcomprehension. So if they read something, and then you ask themquestions, and they can't sequence that information, or figure outlike, what actually did I read? That could be a huge flag. Somepeople think that if kids just start writing their alphabet andreversals, that's, that's a sign that there's a misconceptionaround that it may be a sign, but not all students do thatsometimes. There could be some other things at play.
Barb Coleman 42:13
But I'm asking because I hear sometimes, you know, when parentssay, well, they don't write their letters backwards, or that wasn'tan issue, or they can remember numbers. Well, those aren't the onlysigns. Yeah, no, no, they could also just be simply, you know,verbally being able to follow a set of directions that are maybegreater in length than two or three, like just stranding things. Sothere's a lot of different things to look for, if you go super farback to when they're even toddlers, it could be as much as, youknow, milestones that they may or may not be meeting and you'veexcluded possibilities for like hearing or vision issues. So Iwould say definitely, for parents, you know, keep up on thosemilestones, they're, they're there as a reference point, they'renot a hard stop, but they're definitely there as a reference point.Always consider your genetics because, you know, there tends to bea link Yeah. No, actually, no, keep close relationships withteachers and and with your own children. If you have other kids inyour family, and you can kind of do a little comparison withoutletting them know and just kind of be like, Oh, well, you know,this seemed to be okay. And third grade, but I'm not seeing thesame thing happening for, you know, this particular Yes. Daughter,you know, so there's lots of reference points up until that point.And then when they get a little bit older, we've had students whoweren't diagnosed until they were 14 1516, because they had suchgreat coping skills. So think about how much time are they spendingon task? Is it successful time? Or is it frustrating? Or is it justmeeting basic bar levels in terms of expectations, so there's lotsof different things, but I think a lot of it is communication, andobservation. And then when you're ready, if you have, you know, aconcern, then testing will really help you to kind of understandwhat's happening between cognitive and academics.
Joulé Bazeman 43:57
Yeah, and I remember what my my youngest daughter, when werealized something was going on with her, she sat down with me andshe just came out and said, Mom, something's happening in my head.I said, Well, what do you mean? And she said, is, when I read I getthis. She described it as like a crunchy sound. Like a crunchy so Isaid well, with your teachers, but the younger kids will give someclues, right? They'll tell you like, this is what what I'm what I'mstruggling with, they may not have the language, but it'sdefinitely something you want to follow up with a teacher and say,okay, so can you what teachers can do is to create an observationalrecord and know the number of teachers in their in early age,they'll do like the Dr. A's and running record reading records.That's something that you can look at, as well as a parent, youknow, keep in contact with the teachers, definitely. And then youcan make some recommendations, whether that's gone to, you know,speech and language pathologists, maybe there may be an OT who mayget involved if it's just you know, discraft tea or something likethat, but definitely keep those lines communication open with thepersons that are working directly with the studio. Yeah.
Barb Coleman 45:05
The last thing I just want to ask is what sparked Worcester todo this? What what made them think, you know, we need thiscomponent in our program, were you part of the inception of that, Iknow you're a part of the revamping of it so
Joulé Bazeman 45:20
I don't work there were a couple of things going on. So we'llstart head started a program called prospect which was for ouryounger friends. And that that was actually like a school within aschool. And so students were coming to Worcester with with a aneducational plan, often those students who are dyslexic, but therewere others who fell under the LD LD realm. And they worked withthe specialist and and her team in in that program. Like I said, itwas a school within a school because it was you know, they veryrarely participated with the with the non prospect students, butthat school in design was meant to be as intensive as like a schoollike, like self for Eagle Hill, it was like blisters version of, ofEagle Hill. Now in terms of bridge, now how bridge came apart,there was this lovely woman, I don't know, their name on, on apodcast, this lovely woman, one of her children from had beendiagnosed with dyslexia, and he was transitioning to the highschool and there wasn't a prospect at the high school level. And soshe worked with with a team of teachers who designed bridge andbridge, much like prospect was a school within a school. So twostudents, they had two teachers, and they're only two students atthat time. But they spent their whole day with these two teachers,they did participate in sports, but their whole academic day waswith only these two teachers. So when we came on board, our mainthing was like, we're gonna we're gonna have to change that we wantthe students to be fully integrated into the program. And we alsowant to be fully integrated in the program, we want students, wedon't want that stigma on a student and also the educators. And sowhile the students were integrating, going to all the courses andOpera school, we were also pushing those boundaries, and we wereinterjecting ourselves in the classroom. And that would reallycaught on for our program. Because now, you know, in that regard,the program, we're not a school within the school, but we are apart of school in every aspect. We just have these other classesthat we, you know, work with our students. And so it's been a hugetransition.
Barb Coleman 47:35
And it's a huge transition. Did you find that the community cameon board fairly quickly, once you really pushed into everything andand made it the norm? Yeah, I think that that's one of thestrengths for why the program has done as well as it has. And andjust to add to the the origins, we were only a nine and 10. programat first. And then these same fantastic parents and families whosaid how can we adjust this to meet you know, the the needs ofstudents as they're evolving and growing? So we we developed in11th grade model, and then after 11th grade, they said, How can wekeep this going from 12th grade so that we are really workingtoward it more autonomy and independence and agency. So wedeveloped a transitional college model for 12th grade. And then wehad parents who were like, how can we start sooner, so we plannedand started the middle school program. So we really have been aresponse to our community and what they're telling us that the theneeds are for these cohorts. And we are really just taking a lot ofwhat we think and know would be really important to have in place,and then taking feedback from what families are telling us theycan't find and they really would like to see. And we're just youknow, making this recipe together all the time. And it shifts andchanges according to you know, who we have in our cohort, but butour basic philosophy and our practices are solid within that.
Dana Jonson 49:05
And one of my favorite things is that what the bridge programshows is that it can be done, okay, that that this can be done as afull cultural systemic solution from which all students benefit.And I think that really is the most important message as we'vetouched on it. It's difficult to do in larger buildings and largerprograms, particularly the public school, but you got to startsomewhere. And I think being able to look at the bridge program andunderstanding that it is fully integrated, that this does apply toeveryone everyone is having their needs met and no one is losingbecause if you have these students I hear that a lot. Well thesestudents get so much more attention. What about the other kids youknow, my kid would benefit from extra time well, then maybe yourkid has a learning disability. But that but it really is ademonstration of what can be done and and how we really can be AllInclusive,
Joulé Bazeman 50:01
it has to start at the top to like we came on, we made sure thatwe clearly understood the vision of Western, because we wanted tomake sure that what we did with the bridge program align with thatmission. And I feel that this program truly shows that we areinclusive, we talked about breaking down systematic barriers, andthere was a systematic barrier before we got on board. And we'vebroken that barrier, right. And the beauty we always come back tothis point that Wooster has done for us as educators is that theyhave given us the space and they have trusted us to make thedecisions that we have made. And we have partnered again withbarsa, with the parents and the student, and like this is thestudents program. And along the way we've adjusted, we made somedecisions. But each decision was based on what the student needs atthat time, the core things are always there. We want students tofeel valued. Again, they're not broken, they are celebrated. Theyhave the tools, we're just providing them the environment to do thethings that it's necessary for them to do. Like it's a part oftheir, their, their soul. So we're over the hills thankful andgrateful for everything that we have at Wooster, and the students.I mean, every time that we get to see them, we're just like beanie.It's not it's not I don't want to make it seem like all rodeo is ina lot of hard work. It is it's exhausting. It's hard work. Butwe're partnering with some really great people. And we're excitedevery day to come do the work that we do.
Barb Coleman 51:37
And I think just to add one last note to that, you know, yes,there are bumps in the road. And it's not perfect. And of course,we're focusing on everything that works well. And, and when we falldown, we have to get back up. But I think delay mentioned Worcesterhas been incredible in providing us the opportunity to do that, andand the belief in us and the willingness to partner with us, andalso the parents, parents have put huge amounts of trust and effortinto working with us to all do what's best for these learners. Theproof is in the pudding. The proof is in the students that you areputting out who are meeting their goals and their dreams andpursuing their education or whatever it is they want to pursuenext. And taking these skills and actually making them work in thereal world.
Joulé Bazeman 52:24
zactly we have our this year, this school year is prettysignificant to us. Because the two students we started with in 10thgrade. They're graduating from college this year. Here, yeah. Soit's pretty exciting for us to see where they where they go. That'ssort of full circle. Yeah, exactly. Well, maybe
Dana Jonson 52:45
not yet. They might not be finished.
Joulé Bazeman 52:49
They might be gone. You know, going back to school.
Barb Coleman 52:52
That is a great. That is a great measure, though to be that mustbe exciting to see the first two students and say, Yep, it'sworking. Yeah. Yeah, it absolutely worked. Well, thank you both somuch for joining me and explaining these pieces. And talking aboutthe bridge program. I don't think it's as well known as it needs tobe. And I think it's a wonderful model for any other schools thatthat want to try and incorporate language based learning strategiesthat benefit all students. So I appreciate it. All of your contactinformation. And the Wister website that we discussed will be in myshow notes. So anyone listening to this, who wants to go back andfind Julie and Barb or Worcester the bridge program, go back andread the show notes. They will all be there. And thank you both somuch for joining me today. Thank
Joulé Bazeman 53:36
you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I
Dana Jonson 53:38
really really enjoyed our time talking with you. Thank you somuch. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forgetto subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications when newepisodes come out. And I want to know what you want to know. Sojoin our Facebook group also named need to know with Dana Jonson oryou can email me at Dana at special ed dot life. But definitelyreach out with your comments and questions and I'll see you nexttime here on me to know with Dana Jonson have a fabulous day
